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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 255

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on the 8th of september 2013 richard

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saunders here with you from sydney

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australia

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on today's show on today's show well

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recently in the past week in fact

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i went to uh visit some friends and give

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some talks in melbourne and i was very

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lucky at the same time

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dr colin wright was visiting now dr

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colin wright is a juggler he's a

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mathematician

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and he's this sort of otherworldly

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character who does all sorts of crazy

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fun things full of puzzles full of

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interesting things

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involved with the mathsjam.com

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organization

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i caught up with dr colin wright

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in a cafe in melbourne where he teaches

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me a new memory trick

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talks about infinity

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and infinity

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you'll understand soon

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juggling mathematics and neckties

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and after that it's maynard's spooky

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action maynard talks with hubert

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vandenberg about his book how to sound

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clever master the 600 english words you

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pretend to understand

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when you don't

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that's very interesting for

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people in the scientific outlook i

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suppose the scientific organization the

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industry the what's the word i'm looking

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for i'd better read his book

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it's always important that you sound

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clever yes i think that's very important

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anyway that interview is coming up a

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little later on in the show

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and of course we have the week in signs

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from our good friends at the royal

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dot a u

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and to round off the show one from the

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vaults one from the digital audio vaults

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i've been looking through recently some

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years back i was a guest on sydney radio

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with the host mike williams

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and we discuss spontaneous human

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combustion

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and firewalking now some important notes

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before we get into the show

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a big thank you to my friends in

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melbourne at the immortalic skeptics and

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the victorian skeptics if you want to

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find out more about the victorian

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skeptics and the fine work they do visit

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i gave a talk down there at the

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mordialic

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sporting club great turnout thanks for

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everybody who came along

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and good news for sydney siders

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skepticamp is coming up once again

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skepticamp at the university of

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technology on the uh 12th of october

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from 10 a.m

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more news about that in the coming weeks

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skeptic camp in sydney it's been going

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for some years now always a great event

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also good news for sydney site is on

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sunday the 15th of uh september

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so that's sunday a little over a week

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away at 5 30 p.m there's a special an

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extra special sydney skeptics in the pub

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with dr pamela gay now this is going to

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be at the crown hotel which is at the

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corner of elizabeth and goulburn streets

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best thing to do is to visit

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and find out more there will be a 10

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door fee but all profits will go to

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pamela's cosmo quest program

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wow i can't wait for that one it's going

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to be wonderful to see dr pamela gay

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very soon

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and another highlight for you lucky

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people in sydney on the 28th of

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september there's the australian

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skeptics

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dinner meeting

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oh this one's going to be good galit

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segev

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gives her talk about the science behind

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chocolate oh man

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oh she she makes this chocolate which is

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a combination of blue cheese and dark

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chocolate

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it's um

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it's indescribable it's sensational

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more details go to the website but that

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didn't talk for you sydney siders get

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your tickets while you still can

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popular topic on the 28th of september

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now when i was in melbourne i was

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actually uh

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requested by somebody if i could do this

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dice thing again i've got my 20-sided

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dice i've got a giant one this is huge

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this is what i picked up in dragon con

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about uh five years ago it's a giant

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20-sided die

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all right everybody here we go it's that

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time again think of a number

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one two three four five all the way to

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twenty are you thinking let's see how

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good you are predicting

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fifteen

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and with that thought in my head i'm

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gonna run downstairs see if i have any

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blue cheese and crackers while we all

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those are the days

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dr steve roberts is of course whinging

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about the good old days for the berlin

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wall folks yeah we had tanks and pointed

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guns at each other and somebody sneezes

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actually sorry maybe something goes

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flying over the wall

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oh those are the days of it i'm sitting

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here with dr colin wright who i met in

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qed twice now twice now twice now good

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to catch up here we i'm in melbourne to

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give some talks and you're in town at

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the same time happen to be visiting my

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parents from the uk so uh yeah so

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managed to catch up with you which is a

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a bit of an added bonus we've had a good

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day went to in big and books yeah yes

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and found a book that i wanted actually

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i found

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30 books i wanted but i can't ship them

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all back to the uk so i only bought one

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very restrained which book did you buy i

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think i bought um one by terry pratchett

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on uh on poo actually

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on poo yeah not poo bear

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but uh but who in one of terry

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pratchett's books a young lad is it

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becomes very fascinated with animals and

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their products oh one of which is is poo

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but we haven't read the book yet so i

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don't exactly know what it's about it's

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now why don't you uh

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tell our audience once again remind them

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about the fabulous maths opportunity

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that awaits them all around the world oh

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the maths jam yeah maths jam math jam is

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a movement sort of thing that uh matt

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parker started in london he uh he got

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together with a few friends one evening

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and and they started swapping puzzles

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and at the end of the evening said that

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they had such a good time they just had

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to do it again and as you can imagine

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normally when you say something like

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that nothing ever happens but somebody

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pulled out their diary and said well how

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about next month and so they ended up

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meeting on the second last tuesday of

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the month in this london pub swapping

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puzzles and tricks and games and just

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talking about maths generally but not

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sort of deep academic math but

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recreational math that's where you've

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got puzzles

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yeah exactly so exactly so and uh so

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other people started to do this so

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people in manchester are doing in fact

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there are about 14 places in the uk but

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there's also a meeting here in melbourne

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uh second last tuesday of the month

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seven o'clock and uh do you know where

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they meet i think that the bull and bear

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in flinders lane you know what that is i

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don't know

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no but it's a very easy to find uh

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there's a meeting that comes and goes in

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perth but there's a couple in the us and

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um there's a one in portugal and a few

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around but there's also the annual maths

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jam meeting which is coming up on the

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first weekend of november in the uk

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that's a full weekend of people getting

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together and just talking about

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recreational maths and puzzles and games

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and stuff like that

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wow wow any

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keen entrepreneur out there would go

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along and make lots of notes for a book

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i could certainly do that although we do

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have some rules oh yes yeah the first

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rule is that you're there to share

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so if somebody's there and just making

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notes that it will be noted and they you

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know somebody will come up to them and

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say well yeah show us something then

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but it's never happened yet um so we we

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don't really know what we'll do if

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somebody does that but there's

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people there are keen on sharing what

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they know uh keen on showing people

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things that are new and then learning

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things in return because everybody just

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wants to enthuse about this subject is

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the ideal place second rule by the way

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uh is that you have to enjoy yourself

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yeah so if you see something that if you

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see something that's wrong then just go

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and fix it don't moan about it just fix

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it and the third rule is that if

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somebody else is enjoying themselves

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you're not allowed to stop them

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so if you know the answer to a puzzle

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that they're working on

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you can go and be smug

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about it grin away but you're not

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allowed to give them a hint right unless

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they explicitly ask you for it no

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spoilers no spoilers absolutely no

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spoilers so if they come up and say look

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i'm really stuck on this give me a hint

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then that's fine but if they're working

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on it for some of them that's their

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enjoyment that's the way they love to

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spend time doing this so so you're not

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allowed to spoil somebody else's

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enjoyment this is the fourth one we've

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had and so far they've been great

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success the fourth annual the fourth

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annual wow yeah so uh the maths jams

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have been running for about uh five and

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a half years now the uh the monthly

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meetings uh so we've started up the

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annual gathering just sort of a

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reflection of the gathering for gardener

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which is a similar thing in the us and

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the uh colloquium of recreational maths

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which is run in portugal every two years

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so gathering for gardiner recreational

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maths colloquium they bounce back and

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forth every two years each and the math

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jam sort of sits between those

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and where can people uh go to find out

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more about matt's channel oh

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www.mathsjam.com

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that's difficult

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you told me something earlier today

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and we worked out my bacon number by

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doing this

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i have a bacon number of two yeah with

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hugh jackman that's right you google

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that everybody

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um oh we're in a cafe against the cafe

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sound effects you here in the background

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but you tell me a way of a memory trick

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oh yeah just if you want to remember

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something and it's just this random fact

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that's not connected to anything else

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usually you can connect something into

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something else you already know to

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create a pattern or a structure which

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helps you remember it which is the way

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memory champions do this sort of thing

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but there's a technique known as space

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00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:56,399
repetition space repetitive spaced

276
00:11:02,470 --> 00:10:59,440
repetition spaced yeah space right yeah

277
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:02,480
so uh you think to yourself okay um

278
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:05,600
random fact uh about something uh got no

279
00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:07,279
idea really hopeless at pulling these

280
00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:09,040
things out you know i equals three point

281
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:10,640
one four one five nine two six five

282
00:11:14,389 --> 00:11:12,399
three five so you you just write that

283
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:14,399
down and you look at it you think okay

284
00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:16,320
try and remember it close my eyes recite

285
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:17,920
it try and remember it put it down and

286
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,000
then one minute later

287
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:22,160
try to recall it okay and if you do

288
00:11:25,509 --> 00:11:23,680
reasonably if you don't do reasonably

289
00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:25,519
well then one minute after that do it

290
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,200
again right so you do it at one minute

291
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:29,200
spacing until you've remembered it for

292
00:11:32,710 --> 00:11:30,560
that and then

293
00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:32,720
put it off to two minutes spacing so

294
00:11:36,710 --> 00:11:34,959
double the the and then if you if you do

295
00:11:39,110 --> 00:11:36,720
reasonably well then go out to five

296
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:39,120
minutes and go out to ten minutes each

297
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:42,000
time more or less doubling the gap and

298
00:11:46,630 --> 00:11:44,000
if you find that you falter then keep it

299
00:11:48,470 --> 00:11:46,640
at that gap until you're okay and then

300
00:11:50,949 --> 00:11:48,480
start doubling the gap again and it

301
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:50,959
doesn't take very many doublings to have

302
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:53,519
it one day apart so just pull it out and

303
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,959
look at it in the morning to refresh

304
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,959
your memory you do that two days in a

305
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:59,120
row and then do it later in that week

306
00:12:03,110 --> 00:12:01,040
and then do it the next week and you

307
00:12:04,710 --> 00:12:03,120
suddenly find that it's a month before

308
00:12:07,829 --> 00:12:04,720
you need to remind you you just pull it

309
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:07,839
out yeah if you never use it you need to

310
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:09,760
keep refreshing it at sort of one month

311
00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:12,079
notice or two months notice but if you

312
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,240
use it once a month there you are you

313
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,680
already got it

314
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:17,920
often enough that it's keeping it fresh

315
00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:18,880
enough

316
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,040
and it's just a great technique for

317
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:23,519
memorizing stuff so

318
00:12:29,190 --> 00:12:26,480
my wife and i memorize poetry like this

319
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:29,200
uh you can remember uh theorems for

320
00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:31,920
exams you can remember bits of prose you

321
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:34,160
can remember magic tricks bits of

322
00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:35,920
manipulation anything you need to

323
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:38,320
remember so it's not just memorizing a

324
00:12:42,389 --> 00:12:40,399
sequence of words so to speak like a

325
00:12:44,069 --> 00:12:42,399
poem or a theorem or something but a

326
00:12:47,030 --> 00:12:44,079
technique yeah

327
00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:47,040
and spaced repetition is a technique to

328
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,440
memorize anything that you can keep with

329
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,360
a bit of practice it helps you to

330
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:53,440
practice it often enough

331
00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:55,680
so practice it now and again then double

332
00:12:59,590 --> 00:12:57,279
the spacing practice it again you should

333
00:13:00,710 --> 00:12:59,600
try that with origami yeah no i mean you

334
00:13:02,069 --> 00:13:00,720
i'm sure you'll find that there are

335
00:13:03,990 --> 00:13:02,079
things that you've folded yeah that

336
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:04,000
you've forgotten

337
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:06,399
there are many yeah many someone will

338
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,399
say to me oh can you make this i thought

339
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:10,079
great i get a bit of paper out and i

340
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:12,160
thought what do i do next yeah because

341
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,959
my

342
00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:14,560
it's been a long time since i've made it

343
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:15,920
there are some things which actually i

344
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:17,600
can make after 20 years because they're

345
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:19,920
so ingrained in my head but there are a

346
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,760
number of things that i have to quickly

347
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,279
refer back to my notes i never mind

348
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:25,279
doing that no but it's more fun to do it

349
00:13:28,870 --> 00:13:27,600
just if you can do it just on the fly

350
00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:28,880
it's the same with juggling patterns

351
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:30,000
people will come to me and say can you

352
00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:31,519
juggle this can you juggle this and i'll

353
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:33,440
go yeah and then i get pick up the balls

354
00:13:37,829 --> 00:13:35,360
my body just won't do it

355
00:13:39,190 --> 00:13:37,839
so if you have a list of things uh start

356
00:13:40,629 --> 00:13:39,200
with one of them practice it sort of

357
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,639
every five minutes every 10 minutes

358
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:42,320
every hour and then then you find that

359
00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:43,839
you've largely got that under control

360
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:45,360
but you need to come back to it the next

361
00:13:47,829 --> 00:13:46,240
day

362
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,839
and so it is that you can start to build

363
00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:49,040
up your repertoire as long as you

364
00:13:53,350 --> 00:13:51,200
revisit your repertoire often enough and

365
00:13:54,790 --> 00:13:53,360
when you want to get a new one to add to

366
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:54,800
it well first of all you've got your

367
00:13:58,069 --> 00:13:56,480
body of experience which will help you

368
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:58,079
yeah but do it once do it again

369
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:59,440
immediately do it again a little bit

370
00:14:03,110 --> 00:14:01,120
later get distracted by conversation do

371
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,120
it again 10 minutes later and come back

372
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:05,760
to it with increasing gaps

373
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:08,800
repeating them at a spacing that

374
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:11,040
increases but a spaced repetition where

375
00:14:14,949 --> 00:14:13,440
did you um it's all over i don't

376
00:14:17,509 --> 00:14:14,959
remember reading about it it's all over

377
00:14:19,269 --> 00:14:17,519
here you can find it

378
00:14:20,949 --> 00:14:19,279
knowing that didn't work because i you

379
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:20,959
know once i've got the technique

380
00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:22,800
yeah i should i should do more to

381
00:14:26,790 --> 00:14:24,959
remember where i find things that's a

382
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:26,800
really bad thing that i do to forget

383
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:28,399
where i find things i should remember

384
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:30,160
you found it

385
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:31,519
it works brilliantly it works

386
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:33,279
brilliantly yeah i've remembered a

387
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:34,959
couple of poems using this technique

388
00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:37,120
some some mathematics some tricks some

389
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:39,199
some puzzles uh it just works

390
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:41,199
brilliantly well when i meet people i

391
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:42,160
try

392
00:14:45,910 --> 00:14:43,600
although i meet so many people it's very

393
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:45,920
difficult but uh you look at the face

394
00:14:50,069 --> 00:14:47,600
and you look at something on the face

395
00:14:51,990 --> 00:14:50,079
and you associate the name and

396
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:52,000
and you try to make that click i started

397
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:53,600
a new job once many years ago and i

398
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:54,959
tried that technique with everybody in

399
00:14:59,269 --> 00:14:57,519
the office and it worked like yeah just

400
00:15:00,629 --> 00:14:59,279
worked it just it's just a matter of

401
00:15:02,069 --> 00:15:00,639
making sure you do that when you meet

402
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:02,079
someone yeah it's also a problem though

403
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:03,600
sometimes if you if you think oh this

404
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:05,360
person's got a big nose and so i

405
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,880
remember

406
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:08,639
his name is a it's a big name his name

407
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:11,040
is bartholomew it starts with a b and of

408
00:15:14,389 --> 00:15:12,639
course you meet by following me again

409
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:14,399
you think big nose big nose big nose

410
00:15:17,350 --> 00:15:15,360
hole

411
00:15:19,990 --> 00:15:17,360
what is the name

412
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:20,000
so it's difficult sometimes to to move

413
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:22,320
from the mnemonic to the name so you do

414
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:23,680
need to be a little bit careful

415
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:25,440
something now how can people in the uk

416
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:26,720
because that's where you're based out

417
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:28,720
when they um catch your your juggling

418
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:30,800
act or your talks well if you actually

419
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,360
just google for my name colin wright

420
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:35,279
juggling that will do for you or colin

421
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,360
wright maths that will do colin writes a

422
00:15:40,310 --> 00:15:38,880
fairly common name so there are quite a

423
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,320
lot of other people including some

424
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:42,560
people with big internet presences so if

425
00:15:53,110 --> 00:15:44,959
you just add juggling or maths on that

426
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,389
co dot solipsis.com.uksolipsys.co.uk

427
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:56,560
um but googling for me is the easiest

428
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:58,399
thing because not only do you

429
00:16:01,829 --> 00:16:00,240
give talks on mathematics and juggling

430
00:16:04,310 --> 00:16:01,839
but you give general mathematics talks

431
00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:04,320
anyway absolutely i do around about 120

432
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:06,959
talks a year and only 70 or 80 of them

433
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:08,560
are on juggling the other ones are on

434
00:16:13,829 --> 00:16:11,040
things like topology or infinity or

435
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:13,839
getting lost in 2000 dimensions or the

436
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:15,920
physics of radar and then you tell me

437
00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:18,320
that there's more than one

438
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:20,399
infinity there's more than one size of

439
00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:22,320
infinity but there's also more than one

440
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,240
type of infinity because there's more

441
00:16:28,389 --> 00:16:26,480
than one type of counting we can we can

442
00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:28,399
count things in how many there are one

443
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,480
two three four but we can also count

444
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:32,480
where things are in line first second

445
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:35,040
third fourth yeah and if you try and

446
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,600
push that to extremes

447
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:39,920
and think about uh infinity you can talk

448
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:42,079
about how many things there are in a sac

449
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,160
yes but there's also a model of

450
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,399
arithmetic in infinity where it matters

451
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:48,240
which order they come in

452
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,079
so if you imagine having an infinitely

453
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:52,320
line collect an infinitely long line of

454
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:53,360
things like

455
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:54,800
just the numbers themselves north one

456
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,720
two three four five and look at it from

457
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,480
a distance it's a great long line of

458
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:00,240
beads stretching off into the distance

459
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,399
further than you can see yes okay now if

460
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,480
you put one on the front yeah let's just

461
00:17:08,789 --> 00:17:06,480
call that omega little omega yeah like a

462
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:08,799
curly w so that's omega if you put one

463
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,280
on the front if you take one plus omega

464
00:17:15,669 --> 00:17:13,199
but look at it from a distance

465
00:17:17,590 --> 00:17:15,679
it still looks the same yeah right but

466
00:17:20,309 --> 00:17:17,600
if you put one at the other end

467
00:17:21,829 --> 00:17:20,319
if you take omega plus one yeah now it

468
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,839
looks different because there's

469
00:17:24,390 --> 00:17:23,439
something that's bigger than everything

470
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:24,400
else

471
00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:32,470
is this is the kind of thing where

472
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:34,400
there's actually an entire year

473
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,960
university course on uh arithmetic

474
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:38,720
beyond the infinite trans-finite

475
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:41,039
arithmetic but if you if you keep the

476
00:17:44,549 --> 00:17:42,640
ordering of things

477
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:44,559
and then try and say well i want to work

478
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,799
with infinity what happens you get a

479
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:49,120
different arithmetic than if you just

480
00:17:51,909 --> 00:17:50,640
talk about how many things there are in

481
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:51,919
this sack

482
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:53,120
because if there's this collection of

483
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:54,640
things in a second you chuck one in you

484
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:56,640
can't tell the difference you take two

485
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:58,080
sacks with infinitely many things and

486
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:59,520
mix them up you can't tell the

487
00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:00,640
difference

488
00:18:05,590 --> 00:18:02,720
so it's difficult to get a bigger

489
00:18:08,070 --> 00:18:05,600
infinity but you can do it uh and a guy

490
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:08,080
called girdle in the early 1900s did

491
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:11,200
that uh actually late 1800s did the

492
00:18:15,909 --> 00:18:14,240
primary work on it 1870s did that but

493
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:15,919
it's fascinating area utterly

494
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,640
mind-blowing and it turns out to be

495
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:20,559
surprisingly useful

496
00:18:25,190 --> 00:18:23,600
as a way of dealing with things above

497
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:25,200
the level of detail

498
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:26,880
so when you deal with pictures you want

499
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:28,240
to imagine that that's perfectly

500
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:30,400
continuous and only afterwards come to

501
00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:32,400
the pixel version

502
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:34,480
where you've got little cells of color

503
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:36,640
so it's discrete there's a finite number

504
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:38,160
of them so you want to start by

505
00:18:42,070 --> 00:18:39,760
pretending there's infinitely many

506
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:42,080
pixels and when you do the mathematics

507
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,760
of image analysis and image

508
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:46,320
transformations you pretend that it's

509
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:47,679
continuous

510
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:50,160
it's not pixelated and you can do your

511
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:53,120
analysis there and it's much easier and

512
00:18:57,190 --> 00:18:54,960
only later turn it into the pixel

513
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:57,200
version so this mathematics of the

514
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,320
infinite

515
00:19:02,390 --> 00:19:00,000
seems like it's just never going to be

516
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:02,400
useful but it turns out that it is it's

517
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,640
the bizarre thing about math is it turns

518
00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:06,640
out to be useful in unexpected places in

519
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:09,280
unexpected ways so juggling eh so

520
00:19:12,549 --> 00:19:10,880
juggling yeah

521
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:12,559
no exactly we found new juggling

522
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,400
patterns because of mathematics it's

523
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,080
it's just bizarre the way mathematics

524
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:18,160
will turn up in in strange places now

525
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:19,760
also i i

526
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:22,000
really enjoyed your talk on juggling

527
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:24,799
which i saw online and i would imagine

528
00:19:28,870 --> 00:19:26,960
that uh our listeners are welcome to

529
00:19:30,549 --> 00:19:28,880
google that up absolutely there's

530
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:30,559
several versions of it

531
00:19:33,510 --> 00:19:32,000
on youtube on youtube if you look for

532
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:33,520
colin wright and juggling you see his

533
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:35,600
whole presentation i watched it a couple

534
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,559
of weeks ago or a couple of months ago

535
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:40,320
i guess after we met the second time in

536
00:19:44,230 --> 00:19:42,400
the uk this year when i came home i i

537
00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,240
looked that up and i was transfixed it

538
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:46,720
was it's a funny show but it's

539
00:19:49,669 --> 00:19:47,679
the most

540
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:49,679
interesting uh

541
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,039
way that

542
00:19:55,270 --> 00:19:53,520
juggling can be described with the beats

543
00:19:57,029 --> 00:19:55,280
and the measures and the yeah this is

544
00:19:59,990 --> 00:19:57,039
fascinating i mean i what i've done is

545
00:20:01,669 --> 00:20:00,000
i've taken one way of simplifying the

546
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,679
juggling because there's just so much

547
00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:03,280
you can do in juggling with warping the

548
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:06,080
timing throwing from strange places all

549
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,080
these different objects more than that

550
00:20:12,310 --> 00:20:10,559
absolutely so so what what we did was we

551
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:12,320
said well it's impossible to describe

552
00:20:17,510 --> 00:20:14,720
we've got notations for music for dance

553
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:17,520
for right for language uh we wanted a

554
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,120
notation for juggling but there's just

555
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:21,440
so much it's so complicated you can't

556
00:20:26,070 --> 00:20:23,360
get everything all at once so he said

557
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,080
let's go really really simply let's not

558
00:20:31,270 --> 00:20:28,559
walk the timing let's not do cool funky

559
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:31,280
rhythms let's just fix metronomic beats

560
00:20:34,789 --> 00:20:32,880
let's only do it with two hands let's

561
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,799
have the hands taking it in turns all

562
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:35,760
the time

563
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:38,480
and as when you do that it becomes quite

564
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:42,159
straightforward to enumerate completely

565
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:43,760
all of the different

566
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:45,440
repetitive patterns there are in

567
00:20:47,990 --> 00:20:46,559
juggling

568
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:48,000
and it turned out that there was some we

569
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:49,360
didn't know

570
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:51,600
and juggling's been around for thousands

571
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:53,760
of years and yet because we started this

572
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:56,240
this modeling method we found uh new

573
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:57,679
patterns that nobody had ever done

574
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:58,880
before

575
00:21:01,669 --> 00:21:00,080
so we thought there's got to be maths

576
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,679
underneath this to do it and sure enough

577
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:03,280
there's some really cool stuff going on

578
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,880
underneath so you know when i saw that

579
00:21:09,669 --> 00:21:06,640
and i saw the diagrams that you created

580
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:09,679
it reminded me of um shoelaces oh yeah

581
00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:11,520
shoelace toy and actually there's a

582
00:21:15,669 --> 00:21:12,720
great book on

583
00:21:17,510 --> 00:21:15,679
the 85 ways to tie a tie

584
00:21:19,029 --> 00:21:17,520
so a couple of guys did exactly the same

585
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:19,039
thing you know do you do you pass the

586
00:21:23,350 --> 00:21:21,600
loose end over the top or put it through

587
00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:23,360
the middle yeah and if you put it

588
00:21:26,789 --> 00:21:24,480
through the middle you can then bring it

589
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:26,799
out on the left or on the right and so

590
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:28,400
they ended up with strings of these

591
00:21:31,990 --> 00:21:29,760
these things and some of them end up

592
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:32,000
with a nice neat knot

593
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:33,440
and some of them don't

594
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:36,400
and they ended up enumerating all 85

595
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:39,039
ways to tie a tie and out of this comes

596
00:21:44,230 --> 00:21:41,360
the windsor knots the uh the the full

597
00:21:46,230 --> 00:21:44,240
windsor the halfway the four overhand

598
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:46,240
all of those but there was also a brand

599
00:21:51,669 --> 00:21:48,960
new one get out and it's it's nice it's

600
00:21:53,430 --> 00:21:51,679
neat it's clean it's elegant

601
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:53,440
and it was completely unknown it's

602
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:54,720
symmetrical

603
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,559
uh and when he went into a haberdashers

604
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,320
and said i'd like to buy a tie they said

605
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,200
sir try this one on he started to tie it

606
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:03,120
using this new technique and the guy in

607
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:04,960
the shop said well if sir learned how to

608
00:22:13,590 --> 00:22:10,830
could you do that

609
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:13,600
again it's just completely unknown and

610
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,919
it's a gorgeous one it's a fascinating

611
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:17,679
little book that introduces you to this

612
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:18,640
idea

613
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,799
of mathematics arising in unexpected

614
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:23,280
ways in unexpected places to show you

615
00:22:25,909 --> 00:22:25,120
things you never suspected

616
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,919
and that's what happens with the

617
00:22:30,870 --> 00:22:27,600
juggling and that's what happens at math

618
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:30,880
jam all the time is we're finding we you

619
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:32,720
just play with these things and out of

620
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,799
these sometimes come bizarre things like

621
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:36,400
how to measure the distance to the moon

622
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:38,640
with a pendulum uh how to measure the

623
00:22:43,510 --> 00:22:40,400
size of the earth with a stopwatch and a

624
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:43,520
ladder uh yeah just just amazing things

625
00:22:47,830 --> 00:22:45,760
um and that's why we love to play with

626
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,840
maths it's not deep it's not heavy it's

627
00:22:51,430 --> 00:22:49,919
not equations it's not formulas it's not

628
00:22:54,549 --> 00:22:51,440
calculations

629
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:54,559
sometimes it's patterns and diagrams

630
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:56,159
and it's just cool to share this with

631
00:22:58,710 --> 00:22:57,600
other people

632
00:23:00,870 --> 00:22:58,720
who then

633
00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,880
have that enthusiasm as well

634
00:23:04,710 --> 00:23:02,559
well colin wright thank you very much

635
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,720
for having a chat and i don't know if

636
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:06,480
i'll catch up with you in the next qed

637
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,520
who knows who knows but um next time i'm

638
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:11,039
in the uk and there's a math channel

639
00:23:14,870 --> 00:23:12,960
i'll certainly be certainly look me up

640
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:14,880
front and center yep thank you very much

641
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,470
is an award-winning weekly science show

642
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:36,720
in french hosted by a bunch of crazy

643
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:38,240
enthusiasts

644
00:23:43,029 --> 00:23:40,720
we are convinced that the greatest ideas

645
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:43,039
in science are quite easy to grasp as

646
00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:45,120
long as they are presented with passion

647
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:47,679
using a vocabulary common to all curious

648
00:23:51,430 --> 00:23:50,159
minds whatever their academic background

649
00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:51,440
if any

650
00:23:54,789 --> 00:23:53,520
we don't understand french yet but it's

651
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:54,799
never too late

652
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,480
all our stories have a written

653
00:24:00,390 --> 00:23:58,240
transcript on the website and people

654
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:00,400
from all around the world are using our

655
00:24:05,669 --> 00:24:03,039
content to learn malia's language

656
00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:05,679
our topics range from zero to infinity

657
00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:08,280
from evolution to artificial life from

658
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:10,159
electromagnetism to the science of

659
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:11,360
introverts

660
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:13,919
we just love mathematics science

661
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,520
critical thinking so do you want to join

662
00:24:21,269 --> 00:24:19,200
you can subscribe to the podcast for

663
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:21,279
free from our website podcast science

664
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:24,400
dot fm that's in one word you also find

665
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:27,120
us on itunes and soundcloud see you soon

666
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:29,200
hopefully at

667
00:24:45,590 --> 00:24:43,909
welcome to a week in science from rios

668
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:45,600
bringing you the science news you need

669
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,480
to know

670
00:24:50,950 --> 00:24:48,320
this week in science we saw computer

671
00:24:53,669 --> 00:24:50,960
games for multitasking circumcision

672
00:25:02,630 --> 00:24:53,679
versus hiv and frogs listening through

673
00:25:07,430 --> 00:25:04,950
mysterious forest islands and bolivian

674
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,440
grasslands are evidence of ancient human

675
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:09,840
use of that area these small forests

676
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:12,080
were thought to be ancient landforms

677
00:25:16,310 --> 00:25:14,559
long-term bird rookeries or termite

678
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:16,320
mounds what was found was quite

679
00:25:20,070 --> 00:25:18,320
different they have turned out to be

680
00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,080
waste piles that have been used for

681
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,080
thousands of years the piles of

682
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:24,320
freshwater snails animal bones and

683
00:25:28,149 --> 00:25:26,080
charcoal are rubbish from

684
00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,159
hunter-gatherers dating back at least 10

685
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:30,240
000 years this means we're going to have

686
00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:32,159
to rethink how humans use these

687
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:37,669
playing computer games may be good for

688
00:25:42,230 --> 00:25:39,760
your brain after all particularly if

689
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:42,240
you're getting old adults aged between

690
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,720
20 and 79 played a specially designed

691
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:46,640
driving game and were assessed on how

692
00:25:50,789 --> 00:25:49,360
well they multitasked the results showed

693
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:50,799
that the participants performance

694
00:25:55,510 --> 00:25:53,760
decreased with age but older

695
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:55,520
participants were actually able to

696
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:57,600
increase their multitasking ability by

697
00:26:02,549 --> 00:25:59,840
playing the game more you're listening

698
00:26:06,789 --> 00:26:02,559
to a week in science from rios and now

699
00:26:10,710 --> 00:26:08,789
voluntary male circumcision in south

700
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:10,720
african communities has been linked with

701
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:13,679
reduced rates of hiv a betrayal of trust

702
00:26:16,789 --> 00:26:15,440
late in a relationship triggers a

703
00:26:18,950 --> 00:26:16,799
different part of the brain than a

704
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,960
similar event early in the relationship

705
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,200
and is more likely to be forgiven eating

706
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:23,440
whole fruit reduces your risk of type 2

707
00:26:26,230 --> 00:26:24,400
diabetes

708
00:26:27,830 --> 00:26:26,240
but drinking only fruit juice may

709
00:26:29,669 --> 00:26:27,840
increase it and the gardener's

710
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:29,679
seychelles frog doesn't have ears

711
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:32,559
because it hears through its mouth

712
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:34,240
last week we asked what percentage of

713
00:26:39,590 --> 00:26:37,200
junk food ads for kids feature free toys

714
00:26:41,110 --> 00:26:39,600
the answer according to new research is

715
00:26:43,190 --> 00:26:41,120
70

716
00:26:45,029 --> 00:26:43,200
this week a historical science fact for

717
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:45,039
you did you know that the creator of

718
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:47,200
sherlock holmes sir arthur conan doyle

719
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:49,279
was a doctor who studied neurology

720
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:51,279
that's it for this week in science for

721
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:52,799
more information on these and other

722
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:55,279
science news stories go to the rio's

723
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:01,909
follow us on twitter using the hashtag

724
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:05,279
weekinsigh and like us on facebook

725
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:07,600
i'm tania maya and i'll catch you next

726
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:21,190
here's maynard's spooky action

727
00:27:34,390 --> 00:27:32,630
but ladies and gentlemen i've got a guy

728
00:27:36,630 --> 00:27:34,400
on the phone now who's written a book

729
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:36,640
how to sound really clever and he

730
00:27:40,470 --> 00:27:38,320
certainly succeeded because his name's

731
00:27:42,549 --> 00:27:40,480
hubert vanderberg if that is his real

732
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,559
name now he's a bit of a language

733
00:27:47,350 --> 00:27:44,559
enthusiast he's read french and

734
00:27:49,510 --> 00:27:47,360
linguistics at oxford university and uh

735
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:49,520
that means he's intimately uh acquainted

736
00:27:53,669 --> 00:27:51,679
with the seminal work of noam chomsky i

737
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:53,679
imagine hubert how are you

738
00:27:56,710 --> 00:27:55,440
i'm very good indeed thanks man thanks

739
00:27:58,389 --> 00:27:56,720
for having me on the show oh look it's

740
00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,399
great to have you i use the word seminal

741
00:28:01,669 --> 00:28:00,320
there with noam chomsky is that the

742
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:01,679
correct use of the linguistics

743
00:28:04,950 --> 00:28:03,200
professor's work

744
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:04,960
it certainly is actually that's very

745
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:07,360
impressive if i might say and um and

746
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:09,120
yeah seminal is one of my favorites it's

747
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:11,840
uh it's actually from the latin seed and

748
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,600
it's all about

749
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:15,200
selling the seeds for the future and

750
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:18,240
chomsky um yeah i i i encountered him a

751
00:28:23,269 --> 00:28:20,880
little bit in linguistics so uh so yeah

752
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:23,279
yeah i always find it this um how i try

753
00:28:27,909 --> 00:28:25,440
and sound clever is i throw names like

754
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:27,919
noam chomsky in because

755
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,760
most of the time people know that he's a

756
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:31,600
smart guy but they don't know much about

757
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:33,679
linguistics like myself so i'll get a

758
00:28:38,070 --> 00:28:35,760
pass on that that's how i sound clever

759
00:28:39,909 --> 00:28:38,080
you've got 600 words in your book here

760
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:39,919
that will probably work if you can use

761
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:41,360
them correctly and i've got to say

762
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:42,880
you've got the name to start with there

763
00:28:46,789 --> 00:28:45,440
hubert van der berg that's great

764
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,799
thank you very much but it's from the

765
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:48,159
mountains in belgium but thank you

766
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:50,880
that's very kind well these words are um

767
00:28:54,389 --> 00:28:53,200
you know i mean i i i used to hear them

768
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,399
out loud

769
00:28:59,029 --> 00:28:56,640
and i think families give their children

770
00:29:01,269 --> 00:28:59,039
one or two of these words i know one

771
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:01,279
friend his mother talks about titivating

772
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,600
the christmas tree every year um you

773
00:29:08,710 --> 00:29:05,760
know adding a little bit of spice to the

774
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:08,720
tree um and um and also i see them

775
00:29:11,669 --> 00:29:10,080
written in newspaper articles i just

776
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,679
thought nobody i know

777
00:29:15,110 --> 00:29:13,200
actually understands these words and no

778
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:15,120
one interrupts a speaker halfway through

779
00:29:18,950 --> 00:29:17,120
a conversation and so no one's actually

780
00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:18,960
improving their vocabulary at any time

781
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,440
so i'd put them all down and use some

782
00:29:25,110 --> 00:29:22,640
use some

783
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:25,120
examples involving celebrities so

784
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:27,520
i could understand them and i mean i

785
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,799
think i might give you a couple of

786
00:29:32,230 --> 00:29:30,320
examples right now actually oh look yeah

787
00:29:33,830 --> 00:29:32,240
please so because we're all trying to

788
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:33,840
get to do this but give us a few

789
00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,039
examples

790
00:29:39,430 --> 00:29:37,919
yeah okay well um well i'll start with

791
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:39,440
some of the ones i used to get very

792
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:42,960
wrong so it starts like non-plus

793
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:45,919
and people use that quite a lot and um

794
00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:47,360
and they usually

795
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:50,240
mean by that um that they weren't

796
00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:52,080
shocked they were less slightly cold by

797
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:54,080
an expert they're non-plus by the

798
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:56,799
theater that night but actually it means

799
00:30:00,470 --> 00:29:58,880
to be very shocked

800
00:30:02,310 --> 00:30:00,480
um because it comes from the french

801
00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:02,320
non-pro which means nothing more you can

802
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:04,799
do nothing more but you're so shocked so

803
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:06,880
actually the word you want to use is

804
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:09,600
indifferent the non-trust is is

805
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:11,440
i misused quite a lot of that one and

806
00:30:15,750 --> 00:30:13,200
then also um

807
00:30:17,269 --> 00:30:15,760
a word like sanguine i don't know um how

808
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:17,279
how you use that but i always used to

809
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:18,880
think it meant that you're quite relaxed

810
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:20,559
about the situation you're sanguine

811
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:22,960
about a problem at work it actually

812
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,559
means optimistic

813
00:30:28,389 --> 00:30:26,399
and it comes from the latin sanguist

814
00:30:29,750 --> 00:30:28,399
blood which means you had rosy cheeks

815
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:29,760
because you're optimistic about

816
00:30:32,870 --> 00:30:31,120
something so i was totally misleading

817
00:30:34,149 --> 00:30:32,880
that one as well

818
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:34,159
i was the one the words you've got in

819
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:36,240
your book that i was glad to see there

820
00:30:40,230 --> 00:30:38,399
because i've i've always assumed you

821
00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:40,240
could only use it in one way and that is

822
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:43,279
the the extreme word pogrom which i

823
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:46,640
always thought was a violent riot and

824
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,320
only directed towards jews but its root

825
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:52,640
means that it's a government-sponsored

826
00:30:56,710 --> 00:30:54,480
uh aggression and it could be against

827
00:31:00,789 --> 00:30:56,720
any ethnic group is that correct that's

828
00:31:03,510 --> 00:31:00,799
right exactly um and um i mean it it's i

829
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:03,520
mean there have been for example um

830
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:06,640
recently the u.s press described obama

831
00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:08,799
as having a pogrom against christians in

832
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:10,080
terms of um

833
00:31:14,149 --> 00:31:12,399
appointing um non-christian law

834
00:31:15,909 --> 00:31:14,159
professors exclusively to senior posts

835
00:31:17,909 --> 00:31:15,919
and things like that i mean it started

836
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:17,919
off very much as problems against the

837
00:31:21,669 --> 00:31:19,760
jews in russia

838
00:31:24,549 --> 00:31:21,679
um in the 19th century but then it's

839
00:31:25,870 --> 00:31:24,559
it's it does encompass um any any

840
00:31:28,710 --> 00:31:25,880
government

841
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:28,720
organization groups exactly now because

842
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:31,120
the meanings for words can change i mean

843
00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:33,039
that could be an example if you used it

844
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:35,760
now and it wasn't uh against a jewish

845
00:31:38,310 --> 00:31:37,039
group um you could get people

846
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,320
complaining because they would think

847
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:40,480
you're using the word wrong exactly and

848
00:31:46,310 --> 00:31:43,279
you do you do get that um quite a lot

849
00:31:49,590 --> 00:31:46,320
and another one is um decimate

850
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:49,600
which everyone assumes means to totally

851
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:52,240
destroy something you talk about a team

852
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,159
being decimated by the other team in a

853
00:31:58,389 --> 00:31:56,159
football match but actually it means to

854
00:31:59,830 --> 00:31:58,399
just skim the surface because it comes

855
00:32:01,190 --> 00:31:59,840
from the latin tradition is when you

856
00:32:03,590 --> 00:32:01,200
conquered a team

857
00:32:05,509 --> 00:32:03,600
you'd um kill one man in every ten which

858
00:32:07,269 --> 00:32:05,519
obviously was devastating but it wasn't

859
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:07,279
it didn't you didn't destroy it nine out

860
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:08,640
of ten it's only one other times you're

861
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:10,240
just skimming the surface of something

862
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:11,919
you're not actually really destroying

863
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,880
them

864
00:32:16,389 --> 00:32:14,720
again

865
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:16,399
oh we were decimated you said what well

866
00:32:20,630 --> 00:32:18,640
there's 90 percent of you left so

867
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:20,640
yeah

868
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:22,720
that that is a very interesting and also

869
00:32:26,509 --> 00:32:25,039
i've been using the word uh from the uh

870
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:26,519
faustian

871
00:32:31,669 --> 00:32:28,960
f-u-s-t-i-a-n and every time i say it

872
00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:31,679
people think i'm saying faustian oh the

873
00:32:36,230 --> 00:32:34,000
play with the devil on his back no no no

874
00:32:38,149 --> 00:32:36,240
faustian and it's a word that is not

875
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:38,159
used at all anymore do you hear it at

876
00:32:41,990 --> 00:32:39,919
all in conversation

877
00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:42,000
yeah i have actually i've i've seen it

878
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:44,559
in articles and seen it i've heard i

879
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,159
think i've heard a couple of people use

880
00:32:50,310 --> 00:32:48,080
it i mean well it's a very nice one

881
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:50,320
because it's um it's again referred to

882
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:53,120
that stuffing you put inside pillows

883
00:32:57,669 --> 00:32:55,679
um and um and this is using the 12th

884
00:33:00,070 --> 00:32:57,679
century for padding out pillows and so

885
00:33:01,509 --> 00:33:00,080
it means pompous of speech

886
00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:01,519
um because um

887
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:03,200
you're padding out your language as well

888
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:06,480
so it's a nice one that one um and um

889
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:07,760
yeah the there

890
00:33:11,909 --> 00:33:09,360
they have there are some fun stories

891
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:11,919
behind these words like that one um and

892
00:33:17,830 --> 00:33:14,880
then there's also things like dog days

893
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:17,840
um the summer days um and you know i was

894
00:33:21,509 --> 00:33:19,600
looking up that the other day and it's

895
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:21,519
because between july and september the

896
00:33:26,549 --> 00:33:23,360
romans used to believe that

897
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:26,559
the sun rose in line with the dog star

898
00:33:29,909 --> 00:33:28,080
and that was what accounted for the

899
00:33:32,549 --> 00:33:29,919
heats in the minds of the romans but

900
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,559
actually um that's not scientifically

901
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:34,720
true and the dog saw is not linked to

902
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:36,480
the heat but anyway the name stuck even

903
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:38,240
though the science is wrong and so we

904
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:39,600
still use it and then the other word

905
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:41,760
pastiche which is a kind of mixture of

906
00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:43,760
stars is actually refers to

907
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:47,039
pastry and how that's all mixed together

908
00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:48,880
through flour and fat and oil and

909
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:50,640
delicious things to eat and so that's

910
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:52,080
where you get the word pasteurized from

911
00:33:57,669 --> 00:33:54,480
pastry so there are some some quite fun

912
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:57,679
stories behind these as well

913
00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:59,919
do you think if in the bid to try and

914
00:34:03,669 --> 00:34:01,840
sound a little bit more clever you use

915
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:03,679
these words and no one knows what you

916
00:34:06,710 --> 00:34:05,120
mean and you have to explain them that

917
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,720
that could just be a different kind of

918
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:08,720
annoying for them

919
00:34:12,069 --> 00:34:10,639
yeah i know absolutely no i agree i

920
00:34:13,669 --> 00:34:12,079
think

921
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,679
you know if you misuse them then there's

922
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:15,839
a danger that they're unhelpful for

923
00:34:19,909 --> 00:34:18,320
everyone i think i think what's um nice

924
00:34:21,510 --> 00:34:19,919
about them is that people very quickly

925
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:21,520
get them from the context and actually

926
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:22,320
people

927
00:34:26,470 --> 00:34:24,800
like a slight um zany word to be thrown

928
00:34:28,069 --> 00:34:26,480
in once in a while you know just for a

929
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:28,079
bit of variety apart from anything else

930
00:34:32,149 --> 00:34:30,000
i think so i think in the other ones

931
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:32,159
they don't have any synonyms so if you

932
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:33,760
don't know them then you can't express

933
00:34:38,470 --> 00:34:35,440
yourself using any other word so there's

934
00:34:40,470 --> 00:34:38,480
a word like quixotic as well which is um

935
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:40,480
from don quixote and that's about all

936
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:43,440
all about the excessive dreamy idealism

937
00:34:50,149 --> 00:34:46,720
of don quixote so if if you

938
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:50,159
someone was on a date um and um they put

939
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:52,159
a coat over a puddle

940
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:54,480
um for um

941
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:56,320
for someone to step over the

942
00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:58,480
puddle of water and they ruined their

943
00:35:02,069 --> 00:35:00,160
coat that was an example of quick sotic

944
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:02,079
behavior so it's really just a little

945
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:04,240
bit excessive um and but there's no

946
00:35:07,270 --> 00:35:05,119
other word in the language that

947
00:35:09,030 --> 00:35:07,280
encompasses that you see so i don't know

948
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:09,040
that true and did you actually where do

949
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,680
you go to have a look for the usage of

950
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:13,520
new words or old words that are coming

951
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:15,760
back is there a website that looks at

952
00:35:19,270 --> 00:35:17,440
this kind of thing is there a is there a

953
00:35:21,270 --> 00:35:19,280
learned place of new words that are

954
00:35:23,190 --> 00:35:21,280
being born that we can look at

955
00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,200
no there isn't actually i mean

956
00:35:27,750 --> 00:35:24,960
the um

957
00:35:29,030 --> 00:35:27,760
i just got them by over over a few years

958
00:35:31,829 --> 00:35:29,040
i just

959
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:31,839
took notes um from newspapers and from

960
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:34,079
conversations and whenever i came across

961
00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:35,440
a word more than

962
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:38,480
um a few times then i'd take it down i

963
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:39,839
wouldn't include stuff that was a

964
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,920
one-off because it wouldn't be useful

965
00:35:45,190 --> 00:35:43,760
but um there isn't there isn't actually

966
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:45,200
a website that doesn't well the only

967
00:35:48,470 --> 00:35:46,880
thing is every year obviously

968
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:48,480
the oxford english dictionary certainly

969
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,880
over here does does a a great survey of

970
00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:52,400
all the the new words of these and we've

971
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:54,480
got omnishamble then this year to

972
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:55,440
describe

973
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,079
um the government i think you know

974
00:36:01,910 --> 00:36:00,480
i like that

975
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:01,920
and then there are a few others like

976
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:03,839
that going around and of course a lot of

977
00:36:08,310 --> 00:36:06,000
them are linked to new technologies the

978
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:08,320
selfie came in this year as well and and

979
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:09,920
things like that so

980
00:36:14,069 --> 00:36:11,839
um but they usually there isn't there is

981
00:36:15,990 --> 00:36:14,079
alternative source at the moment and how

982
00:36:17,750 --> 00:36:16,000
do you do that i mean i've got a

983
00:36:19,750 --> 00:36:17,760
twitter account at sound clever and

984
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:19,760
every every day i try and do a new word

985
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:21,760
for people to put which i've seen in the

986
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:23,520
newspaper which i'll tweet that day and

987
00:36:27,270 --> 00:36:25,760
and i i find that quite fun to do oh

988
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:27,280
okay now that that twitter account is

989
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,320
one word and it just at sounds clever

990
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:32,240
yeah that sounds clever with no s in the

991
00:36:36,470 --> 00:36:34,560
middle just sound clever

992
00:36:39,270 --> 00:36:36,480
oh we can follow you on that uh this is

993
00:36:40,790 --> 00:36:39,280
an amazing bunch of words that you put

994
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:40,800
together here and how long did you say

995
00:36:45,430 --> 00:36:43,280
it took to find these ones well it took

996
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:45,440
about two years of actually

997
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:47,040
stalking them and trapping them as it

998
00:36:50,470 --> 00:36:48,800
were and then another six months to

999
00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:50,480
write them all up and find some find

1000
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:53,280
some good examples hopefully um and um

1001
00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:54,320
but it's funny because you know

1002
00:36:58,790 --> 00:36:56,160
apparently we've all got 20 000 words in

1003
00:37:00,950 --> 00:36:58,800
our vocabulary and it's only 600 that

1004
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:00,960
actually make the difference between um

1005
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:02,320
you know having to be able to fully

1006
00:37:07,510 --> 00:37:04,560
express yourself and not it might be and

1007
00:37:09,109 --> 00:37:07,520
since i wrote this book i i found that

1008
00:37:10,630 --> 00:37:09,119
when you have a thought it's much easier

1009
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:10,640
to remember that thought because if you

1010
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:13,040
can link the thought to a word

1011
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:15,200
then um it stays with you a bit longer

1012
00:37:17,670 --> 00:37:16,960
so i i think it's it's very good just

1013
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:17,680
for

1014
00:37:21,670 --> 00:37:19,680
the general mental cogitation and why

1015
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:21,680
have you

1016
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:23,599
look i think it's a great book how to

1017
00:37:27,270 --> 00:37:25,440
sound really clever you can dip into it

1018
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,280
a little bit you can dip into it a lot

1019
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,880
and i would suggest before you you go

1020
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:30,000
out there and you try a few of these

1021
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:31,839
words you get online and get an audio

1022
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,280
sample of this so that you can get a bit

1023
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:35,520
of an idea if your pronunciation is

1024
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:36,560
correct

1025
00:37:40,790 --> 00:37:38,880
yes exactly and dictionary.com is very

1026
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:40,800
good to that because they have a little

1027
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,880
um speaker button next to each word and

1028
00:37:47,349 --> 00:37:44,640
you just click on it and listen to it

1029
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:47,359
although sometimes it can be an american

1030
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:49,680
yes yes you can absolutely absolutely

1031
00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:52,320
right yeah and and do you and as uh how

1032
00:37:56,150 --> 00:37:53,680
do you feel that the americans have done

1033
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:56,160
a lot to ruin ruin the allegedly english

1034
00:37:58,710 --> 00:37:57,280
language or do you think it's part of

1035
00:38:00,630 --> 00:37:58,720
the evolution

1036
00:38:02,230 --> 00:38:00,640
no i think i think they've actually been

1037
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:02,240
i very much like the way the americans

1038
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,839
talk because they they've resurrected a

1039
00:38:07,310 --> 00:38:05,599
few words that certainly in england we

1040
00:38:10,069 --> 00:38:07,320
stopped using some lovely ones like

1041
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:10,079
discombobulated which is just a lovely

1042
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:11,920
word and it obviously means to be

1043
00:38:16,470 --> 00:38:13,760
confused as if you've

1044
00:38:18,230 --> 00:38:16,480
tripped over and hurt your head and um

1045
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,240
that that used to be used a lot in

1046
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:20,560
england and now americans use it in

1047
00:38:24,870 --> 00:38:22,880
everyday speech um uh i was very

1048
00:38:27,270 --> 00:38:24,880
surprised to hear that when i was in new

1049
00:38:29,589 --> 00:38:27,280
york so um i think they have resurrected

1050
00:38:31,190 --> 00:38:29,599
some great work there um and then they

1051
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:31,200
do come up with

1052
00:38:35,750 --> 00:38:34,160
um some some new interpretations and

1053
00:38:36,870 --> 00:38:35,760
some of them can be confusing and one of

1054
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:36,880
them is

1055
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:39,440
this this word substantive and what does

1056
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:42,320
that mean compared to substantial

1057
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:44,320
um and substantive i had to get that up

1058
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:46,000
for the book because i was kept on here

1059
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:47,280
and i didn't know really what the

1060
00:38:49,990 --> 00:38:48,480
difference was and actually

1061
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:50,000
substantively just means it's got a

1062
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,079
basis in reality so in other words it's

1063
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,720
not it's not a lie you can talk about a

1064
00:38:59,190 --> 00:38:56,240
journalist coming up with a lot of

1065
00:39:00,790 --> 00:38:59,200
substantive facts but it's not quite the

1066
00:39:03,109 --> 00:39:00,800
same as substantial but i think

1067
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:03,119
some of those kind of things um

1068
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,720
they are they can be confusing another

1069
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,480
one is enormity and i don't know whether

1070
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:08,160
that came from america but people talk

1071
00:39:11,750 --> 00:39:10,000
about the enormity of the situation i

1072
00:39:14,310 --> 00:39:11,760
was watching the wimbledon final on

1073
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:14,320
television this summer and they the

1074
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,000
commentators take like the enormity of

1075
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,240
the match in front of us normandy

1076
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:20,400
actually means great evil

1077
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:22,240
you talk about the enormity of hitler's

1078
00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:24,800
crimes but you shouldn't use it outside

1079
00:39:28,310 --> 00:39:26,000
of that because

1080
00:39:29,589 --> 00:39:28,320
the word you want is enormous um and

1081
00:39:31,270 --> 00:39:29,599
there's there's a big difference between

1082
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:31,280
them i know it sounds slightly pedantic

1083
00:39:35,750 --> 00:39:33,200
but it's um it's interesting i never

1084
00:39:37,829 --> 00:39:35,760
knew enormously meant uh huge people yes

1085
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:37,839
there was a a recently diagnosed

1086
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:40,320
psychiatric condition where you think

1087
00:39:42,870 --> 00:39:41,119
that

1088
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:42,880
someone's making a movie of you or

1089
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:44,960
you're continuously being observed

1090
00:39:50,310 --> 00:39:47,119
called the truman syndrome so i'm

1091
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,320
wondering if a word may evolve as a

1092
00:39:54,069 --> 00:39:52,800
trumanism or something like that which

1093
00:39:55,910 --> 00:39:54,079
which would mean something completely

1094
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:55,920
apart from the presidency of harry

1095
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:58,160
truman but yeah but reflecting to that

1096
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:59,359
is that the kind of thing you can see

1097
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:00,640
evolving

1098
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:03,200
yeah certainly i mean i think um i i

1099
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:04,400
look this up because i've been trying to

1100
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:05,520
get a few

1101
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:07,359
new words on my own into the language

1102
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:09,680
and i've failed very singularly so far

1103
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:11,680
but it's kind of you have to have a

1104
00:40:15,430 --> 00:40:13,359
certain number of people recognize it

1105
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:15,440
don't you yes you i think you the rule

1106
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,760
is you've got to see it written down in

1107
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:19,920
a in a newspaper or a national

1108
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:22,640
publication five times and then you're

1109
00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:24,960
going to send it off to the to the other

1110
00:40:29,829 --> 00:40:27,200
english dictionary or another dictionary

1111
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,839
and say here's proof but i i've been

1112
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:31,200
trying to get the following word in

1113
00:40:34,470 --> 00:40:32,640
because you know when your phone rings

1114
00:40:35,990 --> 00:40:34,480
your mobile phone in your pocket and you

1115
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,000
pick it up and actually it hasn't rung

1116
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:38,160
at all you just imagined it and i want

1117
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:39,119
to

1118
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:43,760
but um i am i haven't succeeded in

1119
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:45,280
getting that into the language ah so

1120
00:40:52,950 --> 00:40:50,829
exactly

1121
00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:52,960
phantom see i thought i was sounding

1122
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,320
clever until i was chatting with you

1123
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:56,560
hubert vandenberg but i i think i'm just

1124
00:41:01,510 --> 00:40:59,200
where i started yeah well thank you very

1125
00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:01,520
much indeed it's a very good sport

1126
00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:03,200
that's a really good part thank you look

1127
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:04,880
the book is how to sound really clever

1128
00:41:09,109 --> 00:41:07,200
uh hubert vandenberg it's by bloomsbury

1129
00:41:24,870 --> 00:41:09,119
and give it a read and like i said use

1130
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:26,550
now on belfast fm we turn to the

1131
00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:28,960
personal ads easing going and confident

1132
00:41:33,670 --> 00:41:31,040
skeptic seeks other critical thinkers

1133
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,680
for fun laughter and good times must be

1134
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,760
willing to apply logic liberally and a

1135
00:41:39,910 --> 00:41:37,839
good listener expect something new and

1136
00:41:41,910 --> 00:41:39,920
interesting every month come and meet me

1137
00:41:43,910 --> 00:41:41,920
in belfast in northern ireland if this

1138
00:41:46,390 --> 00:41:43,920
sounds like you check out my profile on

1139
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:46,400
belfastskeptics.com

1140
00:41:55,270 --> 00:41:53,430
and with that we say a very good evening

1141
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,280
to richard saunders go richard ah good

1142
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:57,040
evening again mike how are you not too

1143
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:58,880
bad not too bad sitting healthy now good

1144
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,640
on you look i enjoyed our last

1145
00:42:05,430 --> 00:42:02,800
conversation i thought we could maybe

1146
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:05,440
encapsulate a few things in in future

1147
00:42:08,230 --> 00:42:06,640
just every other couple of weeks or

1148
00:42:10,150 --> 00:42:08,240
whatever and just catch up with you

1149
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,160
which i'm glad you've said yes to sounds

1150
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,800
like a lot of fun it does indeed one of

1151
00:42:16,390 --> 00:42:14,640
the the topics tonight and i've always

1152
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,400
been interested in this because

1153
00:42:20,069 --> 00:42:18,319
i've never really worked out why and

1154
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:20,079
we're talking about spontaneous human

1155
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,480
combustion and i suppose

1156
00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:24,160
many people think that human beings just

1157
00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:26,240
literally burst into flames but do they

1158
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:28,880
well it's a very strange story indeed

1159
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:31,200
spontaneous human combustion and a lot

1160
00:42:35,910 --> 00:42:32,800
of people out there certainly heard of

1161
00:42:38,550 --> 00:42:35,920
it and some may be even fearful of it

1162
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:38,560
but many people think that human beings

1163
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:41,760
can literally burn or burst into flames

1164
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:44,480
strange cases with uh photographs by

1165
00:42:49,910 --> 00:42:46,880
investigating police show the remains of

1166
00:42:53,109 --> 00:42:49,920
people who have almost entirely been

1167
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:53,119
destroyed by fire even as far as turning

1168
00:42:59,510 --> 00:42:55,760
their bones into powder which is very

1169
00:43:01,990 --> 00:42:59,520
strange indeed if uh and also one of the

1170
00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:02,000
sweetest aspects of these cases was the

1171
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:03,599
room and the house that the people were

1172
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,160
in didn't burn down yet such things as

1173
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:08,480
tv sets and radios and other things in

1174
00:43:13,750 --> 00:43:12,000
the room were melted but not but i know

1175
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:13,760
and i've seen some of those photos too

1176
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:15,680
richard and it was really i think the

1177
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:17,839
one i saw i remember was someone sitting

1178
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:20,319
in an armchair and the whole armchair

1179
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:22,160
was burnt and the person was burnt and

1180
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,319
just the surrounds a little but nothing

1181
00:43:29,349 --> 00:43:26,640
else it was really weird yeah and this

1182
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:29,359
this really did baffle um investigators

1183
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:31,760
and police and firemen for a very long

1184
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:32,640
time

1185
00:43:39,109 --> 00:43:35,040
it that the case you were referring to

1186
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:39,119
was one uh by the name of mrs mary reese

1187
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,400
from florida now this was back in 1951

1188
00:43:48,390 --> 00:43:45,599
when the police came in they found

1189
00:43:51,030 --> 00:43:48,400
the scant remains of her body completely

1190
00:43:53,589 --> 00:43:51,040
consumed by fire sitting

1191
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:53,599
in an armchair which was very strange

1192
00:44:00,230 --> 00:43:56,560
yeah and another strange case was dr uh

1193
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:00,240
john bentley and this was 1966 and what

1194
00:44:03,990 --> 00:44:01,760
investigators found when they went to

1195
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:04,000
his bathroom or maybe it was one of the

1196
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,920
family members who originally discovered

1197
00:44:10,710 --> 00:44:07,040
discovered it

1198
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,720
was just a hole burnt in the floor and

1199
00:44:15,589 --> 00:44:12,800
the lower part of the leg was all that

1200
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:15,599
was left oh yes i think i've never seen

1201
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:18,240
that tell us about the wick effect what

1202
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:20,960
what is a wick effect okay now again

1203
00:44:25,990 --> 00:44:23,920
this is very confusing for uh the police

1204
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:26,000
and investigators and scientists

1205
00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:27,680
and the

1206
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:29,760
reason they hit on eventually and this

1207
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:32,000
is after really strange far-fetched

1208
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:33,920
reasons have been thrown back and forth

1209
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,079
like fall lightning or unknown energies

1210
00:44:40,309 --> 00:44:38,400
from science and one of the most popular

1211
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,319
explanations uh through the last couple

1212
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:42,480
of centuries is that the victim simply

1213
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,480
drank too much alcohol

1214
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:45,839
now i think we're all in trouble if

1215
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:48,000
that's really yeah

1216
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,440
i might keep a bucket of water beside

1217
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:51,920
the bed and i guess that's right yeah um

1218
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:53,920
but these all these other explanations

1219
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:57,200
really didn't hold water scientifically

1220
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:58,240
but then

1221
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,720
scientists came across something

1222
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:02,800
which they call the wick effect and this

1223
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:05,920
was helped largely by

1224
00:45:10,309 --> 00:45:07,760
luckily or unlikely for the victims

1225
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:10,319
sometimes murderers after killing their

1226
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:12,319
victims would try to burn the body to

1227
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:14,000
hide the evidence

1228
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:16,880
and investigators noticed that sometimes

1229
00:45:21,670 --> 00:45:19,440
the bodies resembled very closely the

1230
00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:21,680
cases of spontaneous or so-called

1231
00:45:26,790 --> 00:45:24,480
spontaneous human combustion one murder

1232
00:45:28,550 --> 00:45:26,800
even confessed in france to using chanel

1233
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:28,560
number five to fuel the fire of the

1234
00:45:31,670 --> 00:45:29,440
victim

1235
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:31,680
which was a way to go i'm sure i guess

1236
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,160
so i guess so so well the upside of this

1237
00:45:37,589 --> 00:45:35,680
whole thing is they actually got to the

1238
00:45:40,870 --> 00:45:37,599
bottom of this and and the title

1239
00:45:43,109 --> 00:45:40,880
spontaneous combustion yes uh they they

1240
00:45:45,190 --> 00:45:43,119
really have the title spontaneous human

1241
00:45:46,870 --> 00:45:45,200
combustion really should be stopped now

1242
00:45:49,349 --> 00:45:46,880
it's more slow burning and this is how

1243
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:49,359
it works it's very interesting there

1244
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:51,839
were clues all along to support the wick

1245
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:54,000
theory and the wick theory basically

1246
00:45:58,470 --> 00:45:56,720
says that once uh somebody dropped a

1247
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:58,480
match or uh

1248
00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:00,800
or something a cigarette even onto their

1249
00:46:04,470 --> 00:46:01,760
clothes

1250
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,480
if they can't put it out and sometimes

1251
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:06,560
the person has sadly died by a heart

1252
00:46:10,069 --> 00:46:07,839
attack or they're in their sleep and

1253
00:46:12,230 --> 00:46:10,079
they've woken up too late the fire will

1254
00:46:14,069 --> 00:46:12,240
burn through their clothes and it sounds

1255
00:46:16,470 --> 00:46:14,079
a bit horrible but it'll burn into their

1256
00:46:20,230 --> 00:46:16,480
body and start to burn the fat

1257
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:20,240
that drips into the clothes themselves

1258
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:23,520
that then fuels the fire and the clothes

1259
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,280
act like a wick if you can imagine a

1260
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:27,680
candle when you light it the wax is

1261
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:29,680
fueling that tiny little wick yeah in

1262
00:46:34,550 --> 00:46:32,240
this case the body fat the melted body

1263
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:34,560
fat soaks into the clothes soaks into

1264
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:36,480
the carpet and even soaks into the

1265
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,079
armchair

1266
00:46:43,510 --> 00:46:40,480
and just causes the fire to burn but

1267
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:43,520
burn in a very slow fashion with low

1268
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,480
flames cause a great deal of heat that's

1269
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:48,560
why tvs and other things in the room

1270
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:50,960
melt the huge amount of heat but the

1271
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:53,200
fire the flames themselves

1272
00:46:58,069 --> 00:46:56,079
are very uh are very small so the rest

1273
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,079
of the room doesn't necessarily catch on

1274
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,319
fire that's very interesting a lot of

1275
00:47:04,870 --> 00:47:02,720
people mightn't accept that explanation

1276
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:04,880
in terms of uh there was some tests done

1277
00:47:07,829 --> 00:47:05,920
with pigs

1278
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:07,839
you're absolutely right in fact uh not

1279
00:47:13,990 --> 00:47:11,440
so long ago only in 1998 was this theory

1280
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:14,000
really put to the test where the body of

1281
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:16,560
a dead pig as a pigs and humans have

1282
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:18,960
similar percentage of body fat

1283
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:21,760
was wrapped in a blanket and set on fire

1284
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:24,319
in a controlled room to stimulate what

1285
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:26,400
people thought was spontaneous human

1286
00:47:29,910 --> 00:47:27,440
combustion

1287
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:29,920
over the next six hours the pig

1288
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:32,240
continued to burn and smolder and the

1289
00:47:35,589 --> 00:47:34,000
fat went into the blanket the fat went

1290
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:35,599
into the carpet

1291
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:38,720
and after only five hours of of this

1292
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:41,520
smoldering burning even the bones began

1293
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:44,079
to turn into into powder and more fuel

1294
00:47:48,870 --> 00:47:45,839
was released from the bone marrow which

1295
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:48,880
itself is about 80 fat temperatures in

1296
00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:53,280
the pig reached 812 degrees celsius

1297
00:47:57,910 --> 00:47:55,520
more than enough over six or seven hour

1298
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:57,920
periods to char the body the bones

1299
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:59,359
that's the lot

1300
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:01,599
that's amazing really amazing stuff the

1301
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:03,520
other thing on the agenda tonight and

1302
00:48:06,550 --> 00:48:04,800
i've got to tell you before we start

1303
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:06,560
this chat we can get the facts we're

1304
00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:08,640
talking about fire walking i've actually

1305
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:11,119
done this you have i have well i mean it

1306
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:12,480
seems that some people can do the

1307
00:48:16,630 --> 00:48:14,720
impossible and walk on fire and it was a

1308
00:48:17,829 --> 00:48:16,640
mental thing for me and i i'm trying to

1309
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:17,839
think i think it was during the wall

1310
00:48:23,270 --> 00:48:20,400
show we set up a fire out the back

1311
00:48:25,589 --> 00:48:23,280
and it was mined over mata i think was

1312
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:25,599
the the way we were going with it and

1313
00:48:29,190 --> 00:48:26,960
they built this fire and they got the

1314
00:48:31,510 --> 00:48:29,200
coals all smoothed out and whatever and

1315
00:48:33,510 --> 00:48:31,520
i just i just i remember at the time i

1316
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:33,520
just kept my brain and i just thought

1317
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:35,359
neutral and i'm going to walk across

1318
00:48:41,430 --> 00:48:38,000
this and it's going to happen and and i

1319
00:48:44,390 --> 00:48:41,440
did and it there was only one very small

1320
00:48:46,230 --> 00:48:44,400
sort of singe on on one of the heels but

1321
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,240
you just walk quickly and you get across

1322
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:48,480
to the other side that's right and and

1323
00:48:53,349 --> 00:48:50,559
for a long time people were really

1324
00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:53,359
baffled about this because although we

1325
00:48:57,349 --> 00:48:55,520
hear the term mind over matter a lot

1326
00:48:59,589 --> 00:48:57,359
when it comes to something like fire and

1327
00:49:02,549 --> 00:48:59,599
its reaction with the body mind over

1328
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:02,559
matter really can't explain why the feet

1329
00:49:07,109 --> 00:49:05,040
don't burn so scientists and skeptics i

1330
00:49:09,430 --> 00:49:07,119
guess really looked into this

1331
00:49:11,589 --> 00:49:09,440
and it really does seem on the face but

1332
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:11,599
to be quite impossible and some cultures

1333
00:49:15,270 --> 00:49:13,520
ranging from the pacific islands to even

1334
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:15,280
sri lanka do fire walking as part of

1335
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,800
their rich traditions that you can go

1336
00:49:20,870 --> 00:49:18,720
and visit those and then they put on the

1337
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:20,880
show but yeah as you you're right in

1338
00:49:25,670 --> 00:49:23,200
thinking that today uh firewalking is

1339
00:49:27,589 --> 00:49:25,680
used mainly by motivational speakers and

1340
00:49:29,349 --> 00:49:27,599
you and the new age movement in fact

1341
00:49:31,829 --> 00:49:29,359
people can pay hundreds of dollars to

1342
00:49:34,230 --> 00:49:31,839
get enough mystical energy in order to

1343
00:49:36,870 --> 00:49:34,240
do fire walking usually at the end of a

1344
00:49:38,549 --> 00:49:36,880
two or three day course but the the

1345
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:38,559
truth of the matter is quite interesting

1346
00:49:43,670 --> 00:49:40,960
from a scientific point of view it turns

1347
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:43,680
out that anybody can do walking and all

1348
00:49:47,349 --> 00:49:45,359
you need is just a little dose of

1349
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:47,359
courage to get going and walk across the

1350
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:48,400
coals

1351
00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:50,240
and that's the key to the whole thing

1352
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,280
it's really hot coal walking as opposed

1353
00:49:57,030 --> 00:49:55,200
to fire walking because by the time

1354
00:50:00,309 --> 00:49:57,040
people actually get to walk on the bed

1355
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,319
of coals the fire is quite died down and

1356
00:50:05,510 --> 00:50:02,960
it turns out that coals and ash are a

1357
00:50:08,630 --> 00:50:05,520
poor conductor of heat and if your feet

1358
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:08,640
are only in contact with the um the hot

1359
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:10,160
coals for a short amount of time and

1360
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:12,079
typically two three four five steps and

1361
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,000
you're off yeah there is simply not

1362
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:16,400
enough time for all the heat to be

1363
00:50:21,270 --> 00:50:18,480
transferred into your foot in fact way

1364
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:21,280
back in 1994 the famous uh marathon

1365
00:50:25,190 --> 00:50:23,599
runner steve monica took part in the

1366
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:25,200
australian skeptic's firewalk in

1367
00:50:30,390 --> 00:50:27,839
ballarat to demonstrate to everybody

1368
00:50:31,990 --> 00:50:30,400
that anybody at all can do firewalking

1369
00:50:33,270 --> 00:50:32,000
and a lot of the locals joined in and

1370
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:33,280
they didn't have to pay any money for

1371
00:50:35,990 --> 00:50:34,640
that

1372
00:50:37,750 --> 00:50:36,000
only for the hospital anyway let's not

1373
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:37,760
go there um fabulous talking to you

1374
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:39,200
richard thank you for your time tonight

1375
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:41,359
and we'll catch you very shortly for

1376
00:50:45,190 --> 00:50:43,359
another look into uh the myths and

1377
00:50:47,430 --> 00:50:45,200
mysteries of this world thanks mike good

1378
00:50:49,430 --> 00:50:47,440
to talk to you too good on you that's uh

1379
00:50:51,510 --> 00:50:49,440
richard saunders there from the skeptics

1380
00:51:34,710 --> 00:50:51,520
australian skeptic society and

1381
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:37,670
the skeptoid science podcast by brian

1382
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:40,079
dunning is now available for chinese

1383
00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,280
audience

1384
00:51:44,829 --> 00:51:43,200
please tell your chinese friends to

1385
00:51:47,990 --> 00:51:44,839
visit

1386
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:48,000
skeptoid.com.cn or find skeptoid on the

1387
00:52:08,549 --> 00:51:51,200
chinese itunes store i'm lisa from

1388
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,309
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1389
00:52:14,309 --> 00:52:12,720
zone and i think i hope that in the

1390
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:14,319
coming week i should be able to score a

1391
00:52:19,030 --> 00:52:17,440
great interview with dr pamela gay

1392
00:52:21,670 --> 00:52:19,040
and thanks to maynard who i caught up

1393
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:21,680
with just the other day for a coffee and

1394
00:52:24,630 --> 00:52:22,800
a chat

1395
00:52:27,790 --> 00:52:24,640
good to see you maynard

1396
00:52:29,349 --> 00:52:27,800
don't forget all you sydney people visit

1397
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:29,359
www.skeptics.com.edu to see all those

1398
00:52:32,710 --> 00:52:31,119
upcoming events like the

1399
00:52:35,190 --> 00:52:32,720
skeptics in the pub

1400
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:35,200
special meeting with pamela gay on the

1401
00:52:40,069 --> 00:52:38,240
15th and the chocolate dinner talk on

1402
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:40,079
the 28th

1403
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:41,520
not to be missed

1404
00:52:48,870 --> 00:52:43,359
but for this week with one more roll of

1405
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,990
okay these things happen 15 again this

1406
00:52:57,910 --> 00:52:54,000
is richard saunders signing off from

1407
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,870
11.

1408
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:04,549
you've been listening to the skeptic

1409
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:06,079
zone